Remembering Ruth Bader Ginsburg with Constitution Center CEO

The Citizen Remembers: Conversations With RBG

Revisiting a chat with National Constitution Center CEO Jeffrey Rosen, whose year-onetime book on Ruth Bader Ginsburg doubles down on civility and reason

Sep. 20, 2020

[Editor's annotation: This story originally ran terminal November, shortly before National Constitution Center CEO Jeffrey Rosen debuted his book, Conversations with RBG: Ruth Bader Ginsburg on Life, Dearest, Liberty and Law, in a chat with veteran Supreme Court reporter Dahlia Lithwick. On Thursday, the Constitution Heart awarded Ginsburg its Freedom Medal. On Fri, the Justice died.]

National Constitution Center president and CEO Jeffrey Rosen'south new book, Conversations with RBG: Ruth Bader Ginsburg on Life, Honey, Liberty and Law, is a compendium of conversations he's held with Ginsburg over the last 25 years. If, in these fractured, uncivil times, y'all're looking for a voice that reminds united states of our shared value of reason and civility, Rosen is your human; he's a true believer in the transformative power that all his beloved Founders stood for in their striving for a more perfect union: Respectful debate, civility, citizenship.

With his latest, Rosen gives united states Ginsburg; whether you concord with her judicial rulings or not, yous tin't argue with the strength of her intellect or the latitude of her influence. Nosotros began in that location, on the curious emergence of the Notorious RBG pop-culture make. What follows is a condensed and edited version of our conversation:

Larry Platt: You've spent all this time with Justice Ginsburg. She'southward become a cultural touchstone—movies are made near her, and SNL regularly parodies her. Tin can you explicate the RBG pop culture phenomenon?

Jeffrey Rosen: It has surprised Justice Ginsburg as much as anyone. At one point, her law clerks had to explain to her who Notorious Big was. It'due south astounding to have seen her glory grow, encompassing those 2 movies, not to mention all the merchandising. A generation of young women and men have been inspired past this vision of a strong older woman, someone who bucked stereotypes, who was never meek, and who today is 1 of the virtually pregnant liberal ramble voices in American history.

What makes that transformation so remarkable is that, when President Clinton appointed her in 1993, she was viewed as a "guess's gauge" and was opposed by some women'south groups, considering she believed the Roe decision should have been based on equality rather than the right of privacy.

LP: Why do yous think her example has resonated so much, particularly for young women?

JR: Considering she'southward only such a boss. [Laughs] She is superhuman in cocky-discipline, in productivity, in her dedication to the job. At an age when most people are retired, she'south at the acme of her powers.

This is what Madison and the Founders meant by the "pursuit of happiness"—they weren't referring to the act of purchasing the latest iPhone or hitting the "Like" button. They were talking about reading deeply in order to cultivate the foundation of reason in lodge to serve a public expert.

I am extra lucky that, for the by 25 years, I've spent so much fourth dimension in her presence, and it's similar being in the presence of one of the Founders.

LP: She speaks in the book of the power in listening. That skill would seem to be in brusque supply these days. Is there something in her example that points the fashion toward greater civility and citizenship?

JR: Interviewing Justice Ginsburg is a unique feel. All of her colleagues and friends know to wait during these long pauses betwixt your question and her answer. During those pauses, she'southward thinking carefully, every bit she's well-nigh to say something important. And she'll say it in complete sentences and full paragraphs. She listens and responds carefully and thoughtfully, and isn't that we demand more of?

Yous know, Justice Ginsburg and Justice Scalia were close friends, and she talks movingly of her friendship with him. But at the same fourth dimension, she's critical of some of the harshness of his rhetoric, like when he said that Justice O'Connor's opinion couldn't be taken seriously. For Justice Ginsburg, it's important for a judge to model civility. She could use vivid metaphors in her opinions, only she would never be disrespectful.

LP: You've walked the talk at the Constitution Center, modeling civility and nonpartisanship, fifty-fifty in your selection of the final ii chairmen: Joe Biden and, now, Justice Neil Gorsuch. I wonder, though, if that can feel limiting when the Constitution feels under assault. Yours is a voice that could credibly cry foul when someone—anyone—violates constitutional norms. At times similar these, does remaining "above the fray" frustrate you?

JR: Everyday I feel not frustrated, but inspired. We're bringing in voices everyday to model civility and it inspires us and everyone in attendance. We just had Justice Kennedy here to receive the 2022 Liberty Medal, and he gave an inspiring speech communication for xx minutes without a note. It was a multi-partisan crowd and he spoke of the dangers of incivility. He didn't call out the president by name, only he didn't have to. It was incommunicable non to think of our electric current vexations.

Justice Kennedy received the Medal from Justice Gorsuch, his former clerk, and he reminded us how to respond to all the increasing incivility we see these days. The simply way to see incivility is with civility. The Martin Luther King and Gandhi approach is the only approach. That'southward how we see our office.

The Constitution is non set upward on the principle of trusting the government. Men and women are non angels. It'due south prepare upwards to counter the passions of the mob past trusting institutions and placing power non all in one identify. We are not in a constitutional crisis, only this is a time of constitutional conflict.

LP: Agreed. But contempo events have underscored for me just how dependent the Republic is on mere norms. For example, the Justice Section's independence of the Executive Branch is actually a norm, not enshrined in the Constitution. Do we only need to trust that futurity elected officials will subscribe to what was once our agreed-upon norms?

JR: The Constitution is not set up on the principle of trusting the government. Men and women are not angels. It's set up to counter the passions of the mob by trusting institutions and placing power not all in 1 place. Nosotros are not in a constitutional crisis, simply this is a time of constitutional conflict.

LP: Then you're not every bit frightened equally I am.

JR: I'yard non allowed to exist frightened or not frightened. But history does remind us that we've gone through worse. During the Civil State of war, politicians were caning each other on the floor of Congress.

LP: Yous wrote a great piece in The Atlantic terminal year, headlined "America Is Living James Madison's Nightmare." How so?

JR: We are in a Madisonian nightmare. He said we should be ruled by reason, not passion. Factions arise, he believed, when public opinion forms and spreads chop-chop. But they can dissolve if the public is given time and space to consider long-term interests. He called for "cooling mechanisms"—roadblocks or speed bumps that could slow down the will of the mob. Well, social media has unmanned many of them. Inflammatory speech travels faster than speech based on reason, as Madison told usa.

LP: So what is the respond to all the mob racket?

JR: We need to be committed to borough teaching, so citizens tin can larn non simply the substantive lessons of liberty, but also attain the habits of borough dialogue—then we can exist guided by reason. This is what Madison and the Founders meant past the "pursuit of happiness"—they weren't referring to the human activity of purchasing the latest iPhone or hitting the "Like" push. They were talking about reading securely in order to cultivate the foundation of reason in order to serve a public proficient.

LP: Aye, that'southward part of the reason we started The Denizen. It feels like we're brimful in more data than ever, but less wisdom.

JR: That'south exactly right. There's a difference between information and noesis. Data is discombobulated bits of data that don't contribute to wisdom. What Madison says to us, what Justice Ginsburg says to the states, is that it's our obligation to achieve deep knowledge. And you go there by deep reading, rather than browsing or losing ourselves on Facebook.

Header photo: U.S. Supreme Court

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Source: https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/the-citizen-remembers-conversations-with-rbg/

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